Change has come...

[relic2279]

I don't feel like reading this entire thread... someone sum it up for me in one word or less

Not much to sum up. 2 and a half pages were a discussion on a hypothetical situation on what would happen if the US vanished, or decided to go isolationist and remove their presence from the world and how it would affect the east.

So that isn't one word... sue me

[shabutie]

Gotcha.

Sounds boring.


Carry on.

[Spanks]

Gotcha.

Sounds boring.


Carry on.

Its really just so Darkjedi and the other World politics and Military nuts have something to do.

[darkjedi]

2 and a half pages were a discussion on a hypothetical situation on what would happen if the US vanished, or decided to go isolationist and remove their presence from the world and how it would affect the east.

Actually I was more on 'who else will protect Japan, if not the U.S.?'

But it could be interpreted your way too I guess.

Now Proin's gonna bark at me for moving our discussion from 'whether or not U.S. will leave Japan' to 'what if U.S. leaves Japan.' ;_; Even though I'm not the culprit.

Because he knows the U.S. will not leave Japan lol, at least not totally.

[relic2279]

If Japan wanted us to leave badly enough, we would have too. Thing is, they don't. At least not yet, and not anytime soon. (In my opinion) And if they said 'GTFO!', I would assume that would cascade into a foreign relations nightmare for both countries. Probably ruin Japan's economy temporarily due to instability and probably many more consequences I can't think of at the moment because I'm already on my 4th beer.

[darkjedi]

Are you done drinking beer?

[darkjedi]

I'm watching the video again, and I think I totally fell in love with the Japanese military. Q_Q Their ships are AWESOME!

This is for AceHigh.

World's best tank.  


Prrrrrttttt Budududududu Brrrrrrrr badadaddadadad

lmao xDDDD

[AceHigh]

I'm watching the video again, and I think I totally fell in love with the Japanese military. Q_Q Their ships are AWESOME!

This is for AceHigh.

World's best tank.  

Don't make me laugh.
It's so "best" that it uses German Rheinmetall L55 smooth-bore cannon that is used on a Leopard 2. Couldn't invent anything better yourself? And of all things it copies the French Leclerc autoloader design 

The suspension is old news, Swedes did it back in the 60ies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT-8X2JOcAc&feature=related
Although fancy, the more complex suspension, the more things that can go wrong with it.

Anyway, the best tank in the world (and this video gives a reason why)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxdEtyxa7Ao

[relic2279]

Um. Nope, this is the best tank in the world hands down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABgAfPsigo4

[darkjedi]

Don't make me laugh.
It's so "best" that it uses German Rheinmetall L55 smooth-bore cannon that is used on a Leopard 2. Couldn't invent anything better yourself? And of all things it copies the French Leclerc autoloader design 

We inherit hand-me-downs from other countries and turn them into real weapons.  We copy Western technology and improve upon them, which makes our hardware better than their progenitors.

Like this one.

It's our first and only ballistic missile which we developed it from the Nike Hercules, a SAM from the 1950's lol. the U.S. didn't allow us to purchase ballistic missile technology from them, so we had to reverse-engineer a surface-to-air missile. Cruel bastards...

The fact that we copy the technology of Germany or France doesn't mean that our tanks are inferior to theirs.

The suspension is old news, Swedes did it back in the 60ies:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT-8X2JOcAc&feature=related
Although fancy, the more complex suspension, the more things that can go wrong with it.

Yeah, it just shows that the Korean tanks do have features that Western tanks have too. On top of it, our performance is better.

Anyway, the best tank in the world (and this video gives a reason why)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxdEtyxa7Ao

Our K2 is the upgraded version of the Leopard 2. Our technology is two decades apart. That makes it a generation. Leopard 2's getting so old that it's gonna be decommissioned from German service in 2012, while our tanks will see service until the next generation.

[AceHigh]

Um. Nope, this is the best tank in the world hands down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABgAfPsigo4

Oh shit I almost forgot. Frank the Tank rules!!!!  

The fact that we copy the technology of Germany or France doesn't mean that our tanks are inferior to theirs.

Sure as hell doesn't make it better.

Yeah, it just shows that the Korean tanks do have features that Western tanks have too. On top of it, our performance is better.

It's not, I checked the facts.

Our K2 is the upgraded version of the Leopard 2. Our technology is two decades apart. That makes it a generation. Leopard 2's getting so old that it's gonna be decommissioned from German service in 2012, while our tanks will see service until the next generation.

Ha! Funny that you stated yourself that your precious tank is nothing more then a build-up of an existing one 

Besides It's the old Leo2 A4 that will be decommissioned, The brand new A6 (year 2007) will stay after the 2012. Also, it's exactly the fact that it is a 40 year of constant improvement that has made it the greatest tank. I wonder how many years will take before the Korean one will discover all of it's design failures and fixes it.

[darkjedi]

Ha! Funny that you stated yourself that your precious tank is nothing more then a build-up of an existing one 

An upgraded one is supposed to be better than the existing one lol

Sure as hell doesn't make it better.

It's not, I checked the facts.

Let's solve it in a more professional way. 

K2 Black Panther Components and Specifications:

ISU In-arm suspension unit

· Inner pressure : 280kgf/㎠
·Return pressure : 180kgf/㎠±5%
·Compensation pressure : 0.2sec
·Cracking pressure : 180kgf/㎠±5%
·Use : The in-arm suspension unit receives the current from the transmission unit to operate the valve. It adjust the amount of fluid flow for the damper manifold and the in-arm transmission unit in order to control the damping power and height of the vehicle. altitude.

DTTS control manifold

Cracking pressure : 571kgf/㎠±10%
· Check valve operation : 0.5kgf/㎠ or below
· Servo valve fluid : 10ℓpm or higher
· Use : This control manifold for orbit control receives the valve driving current from the transmission unit and then adjusts the amount of fluid flow in the tension adjustment cylinder(TAC) which in turn adjusts the tension power accordingly.

Hydro module assy

· Use : It integrates the reservoir for storing the fluid used in the entire fluid system, the filter manifold with a filtering function, the inlet and outlet for the main hydraulic pump. This ass'y forms and distributes the entire line of fluid flow in the HDM block.
· Main components : fluid reservoir ass’y, HDM block ass’y, filter manifold ass’y

Main pump

· Discharge pressure : 282kgf/㎠
· Discharge amount : 140ℓpm
· Rotation : 5440rpm
· Use : It is a piston type pump for variable capacity. It utilizes the change in volume varying with the repetition movement of the piston to supply an adequate amount of fluid and pressure to the entire hydraulic system.

Oil & water separator

· Pressure : 4kgf/㎠
· Capacity : 20ℓpm
· Use : It has a fuel filtering function for the fuel device in the vehicle and it accurately separates and discharges alien substances and water from the fuel.

Direction control manifold

· Pressure : 8kgf/㎠
· Capacity : 20ℓpm
· Direction : 4-way
· Use : It is a direction control manifold ass'y that can shift the pipeline of the fuel in order to continuously supply sufficient fuel pressure and amount that is required by the sub fuel pump in case of the malfunctioning main fuel pump.

IIn-arm suspension unit Damper assy

· Pressure : 280kgf/㎠
· Use : It is a manifold with a hydraulic pressure control function. This functional block is activated when controling the position of the vehicle.

Idle arm

· Use : It is connected to the traveling wheel and the orbit tension control actuator. It transfers the pressure generated from the orbit tension controller through the traveling wheel to the orbit tension. In result, it can smoothly support the orbit and prevent slipping out from the desired orbit and additionally it can support the weight generated by the tension of the orbit.

Fuel pump

· Operational voltage : 18~30Vdc
· Fluid amount : 12ℓpm at 8.2kgf/㎠
· Weight : 8.0kg or below
· Use : It is a driving pump used to supply fuel from the fuel tank to the engine.

ISU cylinder block assy

· Inner pressure : 1000kgf/㎠
· Nitrogen(N2) pressure : 130~140kgf/㎠
· Pressure used : 280kgf/㎠
· Use : The ISU ass'y is a cylinder block that adjusts the fluid discharge from the ISU control manifold in the XK2 tank and the cross sectional area of the variable orifice in the damper manifold in order generates power to cancel out the effect and control the position of the vehicle.

Cooling unit (lmao)

· Amount of heat : 12kw
· Amount of oil : 148ℓpm
· Amount of air : 0.6kg/s
· Use : This ass'y is supplied with cold air from the cooling fan and it discharges the high temperature fluid oil to cool off the fluid of the XK2 tank.

Manifold assy

· Pressure : 110kgf/㎠at 57.2cc/mim
· Emergency parking brake release :80~100kgf/㎠
· Residual pressure control : 0.2kgf/㎠or below
· Use : It is intended for driving power of KX2. In a normal situation, Max 25kgf/㎠ at 65cc/min is used for the driver seat and when entering the water or releasing the emergency parking brake, you may operate the manual valve of the manifold ass'y. A total of three different functions are supported.

All right, before we can begin comparing the two tanks we need the components and performances of the Leopard 2 too. Looks like I'll be the one to look for them again. >_>

[darkjedi]

You know, I think we should just fold this thread...

[AceHigh]

Christ, I served on one of those, there are so many things I know about it that you will not find on the internet.

Did you know of the automated turret add on for the PSO variant? Can you find any documentation that Leo2 upgraded to electric system from the hydraulic system because of the several factors: accuracy, less noise, no pressurised liquids... oh and btw a leak of that could seriously injure the crew.
There are other things like Leo having a fire and explosion detection systems and the coax machine gun is an MG3, a machine gun with worlds fastest fire rate. How about the state of art mine protection which was produced for the latest variants of the Leo2?

The specs you posted are similar to the Leo anyway, the huge difference are made by things like: how easy is it to replace modules? How good is the transmission, what about the armour? How good are the targeting systems?

Just as an example: Leopard has been able to do major upgrades through many decades, that means it has an excellent base design and is very robust. Abrams on the other hand has a huge service history which has indicated that it would be better with a diesel engine, but the main chassis is too small for an engine change, that is the biggest weakness of it's base hull design.

How come your precious tank costing more than any other on the market, yet not have superior stats? (from the ones visible)

[darkjedi]

I don't have any data for the Leopard. And I won't be able to compare them unless you guide me through.

I don't know either how much of the K2 tank's mechanical components are battery-motivated instead of hydraulics-motivated.

Did you know of the automated turret add on for the PSO variant?

I dunno about the Leopard.

the K2 tanks have automated turrets; you saw it in the video. The gyro-stabilized turret of the tank never left the target illuminated by the electro-optical sensor.

K2 also has an automated 12.7-mm K6 CIWS for anti-air and anti-IFV role that can distinguish friend from foe because it's directly integrated into the fire control system. It requires no human input.
 

Can you find any documentation that Leo2 upgraded to electric system from the hydraulic system because of the several factors: accuracy, less noise, no pressurised liquids... oh and btw a leak of that could seriously injure the crew.

no idea lol

There are other things like Leo having a fire and explosion detection systems and the coax machine gun is an MG3, a machine gun with worlds fastest fire rate. How about the state of art mine protection which was produced for the latest variants of the Leo2?

K2's coaxial gun is 7.62 mm only. But does it matter a lot? Our CIWS works much better.


I'll just quote the descriptions of the K2 given by Western sources from now on:

How good is the transmission

The tank is also fitted with Inter-Vehicular Information System, or IVIS for short, for rapid coordination and increased situational awareness between friendly forces. Work is under way to integrate the XAV unmanned wheeled reconnaissance vehicle into the Black Panther's systems, giving the tank's crew the ability to remotely scout an area without exposing itself. Unconfirmed report states that, in case of an emergency, the vehicle can be operated by only two, or even a single, crew member. The FCS can automatically spot and track visible targets, compare them using the data link established with other friendly vehicles to prevent redundant target engagements, and fire its main gun without needing any input from a human operator.

How good are the targeting systems?

The KGPS (Korean Gunner's Primary Sight) and the KCPS (Korean Commander's Panoramic Sight) are also present in the Black Panther, as they have been in the K1A1 tanks. The optics system on the Black Panther, however, will be further improved to utilize the advantages of the sensors and armaments offered on the new vehicle. The commander of the tank also has the ability to override the command to take control of the turret and gun from the gunner. An onboard GPS uplink allows the crew to be highly aware of its surroundings. Also included in the package is an environmental sensor that can detect if the tank has entered a hazardous environment. The tank also has the ability to link up with C4I. It also features an IFF/SIF system compliant with STANAG 4579.

Another munition for the tank's main gun is the KSTAM (Korean Smart Top-Attack Munition) rounds, similar to the SMArt 155, designed specifically for use with the Black Panther. The munition was co-developed by South Korea and the German Diehl Corporation. It is basically a top-attack anti-tank munition that is launched from the tank's main gun, launched in similar fashion that one expects from a mortar or long-range artillery with curved trajectory. It should not to be confused with an anti-tank missile—it does not contain any rocket propellants or motors, and travels through the air solely with the energy applied to it during the firing from the main gun. The munition has its own guidance and obstacle-avoidance systems, small millimeter band RADAR, IR, radiometer sensors and EFP. After being fired, the munition will follow its firing trajectory, aided by four fins to stabilize its flight, and travel over to its designated target area, whereupon a parachute will deploy to slow its fall, giving the onboard RADAR system and sensors enough time to seek and acquire stationary or moving targets and fire away its EFP at the top of the target. During the whole time, the launch vehicle does not need to reveal itself at all and can attack its targets while hiding behind cover while firing off multiple munitions, as they are fire-and-forget and attack targets completely independent of input, providing an effective indirect-fire support or countermeasures against targets hidden behind obstacles and structures.

The tank will also be equipped with a millimeter band RADAR system, along with the traditional LASER range-finder and crosswind sensor, combined with next-generation FCS, that will allow it to track and engage low-flying aircraft with the main gun quickly and accurately as well as detect incoming projectiles fired at the tank. A "lock-on" mode will be available for the tank's FCS to keep its target locked on to the targeting system, with the system calculating, adjusting and updating the target's information constantly, allowing the tank to fire while moving without any loss of accuracy. The lock-on mode can acquire and track its target using thermal optics wired to the FCS up to 9.8 km away. A unique feature of the Black Panther's FCS is a built-in trigger-delay mechanism.

The LASER emitter is installed near the top of the gun barrel, with the receiver being placed at the base. The gun can only be fired when the receiver is precisely aligned with the emitting LASER. An example of the mechanism's usage is when the gunner presses the trigger, which is linked directly to the FCS, and the tank comes upon an irregularity on the terrain at the same moment, the LASER will find itself off the mark by the sudden shaking and the FCS will delay the round from being fired until the very moment when the LASER beam is re-aligned to the receiver again as the barrel shakes up and down repeatedly, where the FCS will automatically fire off the gun by itself. This system, combined with an advanced gun stabilizer, will significantly improve the tank's ability to hit its target while moving on uneven terrain.

what about the armour?

Defense against incoming missiles include soft-kill anti-missile systems. The Black Panther is equipped with three all-bearing LASER detection pods, also produced by Samsung Techwin, that indicates from which direction the enemy is illuminating the tank from, as well as LASER and RADAR warning receivers and jammers.

The armor on the Black Panther consist of an unknown type of composite armor and an Active Defense System utilizing Explosive Reactive Armor blocks. VIRSS grenade launchers also compliment the defensive layer of the Black Panther. Using the vehicle's millimeter band RADAR system, the vehicle's computer can automatically detect any incoming projectiles, immediately warn the vehicle crews and fire off VIRSS grenades, which can effectively block visual, RADAR and thermal sights, in the direction of the incoming projectile, causing the missile to lose its target and miss while the crews move the vehicle to a safer position. Automatic fire-suppression system is also available to detect and put out any internal fires that might erupt.

Just as an example: Leopard has been able to do major upgrades through many decades, that means it has an excellent base design and is very robust. Abrams on the other hand has a huge service history which has indicated that it would be better with a diesel engine, but the main chassis is too small for an engine change, that is the biggest weakness of it's base hull design.

The base design of our K1 tank is the Abrams tank. K2 is an improvement over the K1, so K2 is better than Abrams.

How come your precious tank costing more than any other on the market, yet not have superior stats? (from the ones visible)

Maybe it's really expensive because it's really superior.

[AceHigh]

Maybe it's really expensive because it's really superior.

LeClerc (French tank) is more expensive then the Leopard 2, it's in no way better though. Now that I think about it, maybe it's because of the amount of mass production. If let's say another country orders 200 of those K2, then I bet the price for each one will drop. I guess that is the reason why Leopard 2 is way cheaper: over 3200 units produced.

So never mind that question, just had to think about it.

[darkjedi]

K2 has 680 tanks on production order for the first batch. The production is expected to be completed between 2009 and 2011. They'll facilitate a second production line if the tanks are in high enough demand. We don't build them just for ourselves; we also build them to sell and earn money and compete with other tanks in the market. Our first customer is Turkey, who preferred to purchase the Korean K2 over the German Leopard 2, despite K2's higher price per unit. (6.7 million USD vs. 4.5 million USD)

Turkey purchased 80 tanks so far.

[AceHigh]

You realize that they only want subsystems for their own tank "Altay"?

Three local sub-contractors have already been selected: The military-owned electronics firm Aselsan will integrate the Volkan fire control system[2] which is indigenously developed by Aselsan and currently used for upgrading the Leopard 1T MBTs of the Turkish Army; as well as a partnership between Aselsan and STM (a software firm owned by the SSM) for the command, control and information systems; and state-owned ammunition producer MKEK for the integration of the smoothbore guns.

The tank will benefit both from indigenously developed systems and from the armor technology of the South Korean K2 Black Panther, thanks to a $540 million agreement signed with South Korea. The final decision about the tank's engine is not clear. The candidates were the German MTU Friedrichshafen or the new South Korean engine which is currently under development. However, on 16 June 2008, it was announced by the Turkish Defence Procurement office (SSM) that it has decided to commission the development of 1,000 hp (750 kW) and 1,500 hp (1,100 kW) indigenous engines for use in the Turkish made armoured personnel carriers and main battle tank.[3]

Seems that Turkey goes self sufficient on that one.

[darkjedi]

I'll just make do with the battery performances with the horsepower of the tank's engines:

K2 Black Panther
MTU-890 4-cycle, 12-cylinder water-cooled diesel
1,500 hp

Leopard 2A6
MTU MB 873 Ka-501 12-cylinder diesel
1,500 PS (1,479 hp, 1,103 kW) at 2600 rpm

Maybe they are just the same.

Generally, a system that can apply stronger pressure while having smaller size is the better hydraulics system. We won't know which tank has better hydraulics unless we have information about Leopard 2's hydraulics system. Right now, we know that the K2 is the lighter and smaller tank. If Leopard's hydraulics is not stronger than K2's, then K2 will ultimately be superior to the Leopard in terms of maneuverability mechanical performance. (especially if the Leopard is heavier due to armor; armor's always a dead weight)

And I think I misunderstood AceHigh's question when he asked about the 'transmission'. >.> Were you asking about the communication or the mechanics?

K2's can accelerate from 0 to 32 km/h within 7 seconds. It has a top speed of 70km/h.

Seems that Turkey goes self sufficient on that one.

Yeah. And they are still buying our tanks instead of the Leopards, because ours is better. Better than either their own tanks or other alternative tanks.


K2 already has better impulse and maneuverability.

Power-Weight ratio

K2
27.3 hp/tonne


Leopard 2
24 hp/tonne

[AceHigh]

Most likely the armour. Indeed K2 is a lighter tank, more comparable to the Russian ones, rather than western ones.

Leopard 2A6
MTU MB 873 Ka-501 12-cylinder diesel
1,500 PS (1,479 hp, 1,103 kW) at 2600 rpm

The newest one is the:
MTU MT883 engine
with a 1,210kW

Anyway, I remember talking to the Swedish panserbataljon back during the international exercise. They have been testing the unofficial speed of their variant of the Leo2 (improved) and with a "kick down" function activated they got it up to around 87km/h. Oh the good old days when we were literally living in those things....

I wondered first if it was fair for me to bring in prototype systems for Leo2, but then I realized that K2 is a prototype that has never been deployed or anything, so I guess I will include the things that can be mounted on a Leo2 chassis.